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Lost in translation

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Against better translations?

An entire generation has lost faith, partly due to the type of attitude that critizes Rome and rationalizes sin rather than condemning it.

For those who don't want to be a part of Rome, simply do what the Protestants do and start your own religion. But, quit taking an endowment from the Catholic faithful to supplement your attitude problems.

AS I ALWAYS SAID TO MY

AS I ALWAYS SAID TO MY MOTHER WHENEVER SHE SPOUTED THE SAME RHETORIC AS YOU DO... I'D MUCH RATHER BE A CATHOLIC WHO QUESTIONS WHAT THE CHURCH SAYS AND STILL BELIEVES, THAN ONE WHO SAYS YES SIR I BELIEVE JUST BECAUSE YOU SAY IT'S SO!! NATURAL ATTRITION WILL (SORRY) RID THE CHURCH OF PEOPLE WHO BELIEVE THROUGH NO FAULT OF THEIR OWN AND HOPEFULLY WILL STRENGHTEN THE CHURCH OF THE FUTURE. I AM GLAD THAT YOUR FAITH IS SO STRONG, BUT REALLY... RECENT EVENTS SHOULD PROVE TO YOU THAT ALL THOSE OLD GUYS IN ROME AREN'T ALWAYS RIGHT. INSTEAD OF MAKING NECESSARY CHANGES IN PRIESTHOOD MATTERS THEY'LL LET OUR PARISH CHURCHES CLOSED DOWN FOR LACK OF PRIEST. WHY IS IT SO WRONG FOR A PRIEST TO MARRY. IS IT BECAUSE MOST OF THE DECISION MAKERS ARE PAST THE AGE OF DESIREABILITY? I DIGRESS.

Somehow I don't think

Somehow I don't think letting priests marry will solve the problem of homosexual priests raping teenage boys.

So I see we have another one

So I see we have another one of those uneducated folks out there. pedophilia and homosexuality are to completely different things. Just because someone is gay, that does not make them pedophiles, that is not to say that it is not possible to be both gay and a pediophilic, but it has been proven over and over again that is rare. Please educate yourself before spouting your hatred and bigotry which becomes very obvious. If for no other reason but for the love of our Lord, who loves everyone even the bigoted.

I agree, you just did not know it was you

Although I agree with your explanation of the definition of pedophilia, and homosexuals, there is plenty of evidence (which I am sure you will not like) to support the connection of ephebophilia and homosexuals.
Your intolerance and bigotry is evident in how you responded to the statement, possibly because your ox was gored?
Most of the cases that have caused the scandels in the Church were caused by homosexuals that were not living up to their vow of chastity, and gave in to their attraction to young teens. That is ephebophilia but is unacceptable none the less.

Rape

You are correct to a point. I don't think the fact that many priests are homosexually oriented is insignificant but not all male on male rape is committed by homosexuals. Prisons are a notorious example. The male sex drive is strong and may seek other outlets if the preferred one is not available. Some percentage of the abuse, perhaps most, is committed by priests who are attracted to other men or adolescent or younger boys. Another percentage is probably committed by men who under other circumstances would have sex with women or adolescent or younger girls. Others have said what seems likely, that abusing priests have greater access to boys and a clerical, cultural and practical disincentive to have sex with females contributes to them abusing males, clerical and cultural because of the discipline of celibacy and the resistance to female attraction and practical because homosexual sex does not lead to pregnancy. A married priesthood will not solve all problems and will inevitably lead to new ones but weeding out homosexual priests won't solve them either. A big problem that will remain is the shrinking number of heterosexual men who will embrace celibacy.

As I have pointed out

As I have pointed out before, where the authentic Catholic Faith is taught and practiced, there is no shortage of vocations to the priesthood.

Where the truth is watered down or ignored, and where people pretend as though the Church is a social agency, there are no vocations.

It may be true that few heterosexual men are willing to embrace celibacy for the sake of the worldly occupation of organizer of social programs, but many are ready to embrace celibacy for a divine calling to seek holiness and save souls.

Many

"It may be true that few heterosexual men are willing to embrace celibacy for the sake of the worldly occupation of organizer of social programs, but many are ready to embrace celibacy for a divine calling to seek holiness and save souls."

Many? How many? Enough in our lifetimes to keep parishes open?

Time will tell but I don't think you or I will live to see the answer. In the meantime a lot of churches will close.

what is the big fear of churches closing?

What is the fear of churches closing? I read on here that people will leave if their priest "scolds" them that they might turn from their sins, cause we don't believe that it is sin (birthcontrol use)or abortion.

I read on here that people will leave the Church over a translation change in the Mass.

I read that people on here say they will move from parish to parish or a VA hospital to find a Mass that is just the way they like it.

I read on here protest over the clothes someone wears because it signifies their entire theological cosmos, and is NOT to be tolerated...over cufflinks?

In each case we are threatened with, Are you ready for the Churches to close?!?!

Can you folks hear yourselves? The Churches are already closed if your ears and hearts are that hard and frozen. Shutting the doors is just a formality.

And for this Christ died? Your petty squabbles and lack of charity is gagging.

VA

"I read that people on here say they will move from parish to parish or a VA hospital to find a Mass that is just the way they like it."

In my diocese this is what conservative/traditionalists do when they can't find a parish "orthodox" enough for them. Radio priests on EWTN advise this. Both sides of the Cafeteria are made up of very picky eaters.

brilliantly said

I agree wsxyz, you stated that brilliantly. The Diocese, that are faithful have the vocations. That fact is hard to refute.

Lincoln

We don't all live in Nebraska. That is hard to refute also.

so we cannot copy what they are doing?

Arlington Va, Scranton Pa etc. also have no problems and other diocese too.
You are looking for reasons not to change what is obvious failure. I am glad you are satisfied to wallow in failure. Cling to that, or better yet blame someone else for it.

Cling and Wallow

Scranton has no problems? Are you familiar with Bishop Martino's tenure? He managed to alienate everyone left, right and center. His top-down authoritarian rule was a disaster not to mention his anti-union bias in the birthplace of the American labor movement. To conservatives and traditionalists outside his diocese he was a hero, the kind of kick a** bishop everyone supposedly needs. To those within he was an old school tyrant, aloof and uninterested in what anyone else thought. He was a failure. I'm not familiar with the Diocese of Arlington but a quick search shows that a lot of Northern VA Catholics go to mass in DC to avoid it's extreme conservative tone. We all know the mantra that when every diocese in the U.S. is like Lincoln or Arlington then everything will be great and the pews will fill up. They will only fill in places where most Catholics are already conservative and accepting of conservative/traditionalist policies. Everywhere else they will fail. Cling to your traditionalist panacea if you want but one size does not fit all.

Lincoln

We don't all live in Nebraska. That is hard to refute also.

Attitude Problems

How about .... no. Attitude problems go both ways. There is a huge attitude problem among some conservative and traditionalist Catholics about anyone who does not share their definition of what it means to be Catholic. We've heard this "love it or leave it" stuff before. Those of us who have not left stay because we are Catholic. Sorry, but you'll just have to put up with us.

you ain't heavy you're my brutha

Yes attitude problems go both ways. The definition of what it is to be Catholic is in the creed, and obedience to the teaching magisterium of the Church.

You have pushed traditionist Catholics out of Churchs for 40 years and told them to get with it and get over it. Now you are on the side that"might" object to a change that means you need to let go of something you perceive as timeless. I would suggest you now know how they felt.
Those who stay because they are culturally Catholic and refuse obedience, are really good Protestants but not Catholic. I know many good Protestants that is not a knock on them, but fidelity to Rome/the magisterium of the Church and the Pope are not their thing. So if you are pro abortion, you are for dissenting theologians not the Magisterium of the Church. If you are pro birthcontrol, you may be a good Protestant. I do not make these rules, I am stuck following them like everyone else, but make no mistake, we don't get to make the rules. We only choose to obey or not, and therein lies what is Catholic. Putting up with you is no problem, we have been doing it for 40 years too and we love you.

Possible Soution

How would this work? Just like when I was a kid and had the English translation under the Latin in my missal we could have the New English translation with the Understandable English translation under that. That way we could follow along like in the old days while the old ladies pray the Rosary. Worked before.

Sheila is that you? lol

"That way we could follow along like in the old days while the old ladies pray the Rosary. Worked before."

Except this time, there are no little old ladies praying the Rosary. They were thrown out by the crunchy granola types, made to feel unwelcome in their own church, instead of encouraged to understand why the rosary should not be said at the same time as the Mass in ANY language.
It seems your objections to Latin are not about Latin, only about your fear of repeating your misunderstandings of the past. I trust you have grown past that point. Although your need for sarcasm might suggest otherwise.

Over 90% of Catholics reject

Over 90% of Catholics reject the Church teaching on contraception. Conservatives say that doesn't matter, truth is truth. But the truth is that many Catholics hold on out of loyalty to their faith

What faith are you talking about? Catholic faith requires acceptance of Catholic doctrine because it is a fundamental tenet of Catholicism that the Catholic Church is a sure guide. If you reject the Church's authority to teach then you reject the Catholic faith itself.

Acceptance of Catholic Doctrine

I know plenty of conservative Catholics who reject Catholic social teaching on the poor, reject worker's rights to form unions, reject that affordable and accessible health care is a right, not a privilege, rejected two popes' and their own bishops' condemnation of the Iraq invasion, are enthusiastic supporters of the death penalty when there are alternative means to keep criminals from harming others and hold other positions that are more Protestant than Catholic. They have no problem and see no hypocrisy in doing this yet are the first to throw the "if you reject one thing you reject it all" stone at others. I would not presume to call them non-Catholics, but Catholics with whom I disagree. There are two sides to the Cafeteria.

Let the excuses begin.

Capital punishment is allowed in Catholic doctrine

Capital punishment is allowed in Catholic Doctrine. Perhaps we all need to learn our Catholic teachings.

Capital Punishment

But it is not allowed under current teaching as punitive justice. It is only allowed in anarchic situations where there is no other means to protect the public from convicted murderers. In this country and every developed country in the world prisons exist to safely keep murderers from the public. But Conservative Catholics still support Capital Punishment as PUNISHMENT which is against Church teaching. They, like you, bring up the fact that the Church permits the execution of murderers in a very narrow exception and try to make that sound like their position on execution as PUNISHMENT is consistent with Church teaching. You are correct, we should all learn our Catholic teachings. I have read the documents and they clearly state what I have said. Please feel free to refute me if I am wrong but please state your sources based on CURRENT Church teaching.

I know as well

"I know plenty of conservative Catholics who reject Catholic social teaching on the poor, reject worker's rights to form unions, reject that affordable and accessible health care is a right, not a privilege, rejected two popes' and their own bishops' condemnation of the Iraq invasion, are enthusiastic supporters of the death penalty when there are alternative means to keep criminals from harming others..." Would you concede that as God, Christ could have abolished poverty for ever? Why did He not strip Herod of his wealth? Because dispite peoples expectations that the Messiah would be a temporal hero, He taught a different message. When He healed, it was about forgiveness of sin. Workers should have the right to corruption free unions that do not lend their pension money to the mob to build hotels in Vegas and do not to use their dues to corrupt politicians and overpay union bosses. The NUNS extensive hospital networks should provide accessible healthcare, particularly given their vocations, start there. The Pope should call for peace, nations also have a right to self-defense and the death penalty receives less support when life in prison actually means life in prison. The flaw in your thinking is that these solutions involve human cleverness rather than faith informed action.

The flaw in your thinking

The flaw in your thinking is that you are editing the teachings of the Church and the statements of two popes to suit your own viewpoints. Jesus didn't say or do a lot of things that the Church followed up on. That's the teaching authority of the Church you said every Catholic has to accept, right? Going back to what Jesus did or didn't say is what Fundamentalist Protestants do. It's what they knock the Church with. They don't believe in the teaching authority of the Church. Good point about the mafia but you're splicing and dicing on the rest, especially the war. There was no ambiguity in Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict's condemnation of the unprovoked attack on Iraq. It was not a just war according to the Church. Did you support it anyhow? If so you went against the teaching authority of the Church. But that's OK. I won't call you a non-Catholic because of it. I might be tempted to call you other things but there are rules here, and besides, it would be wrong. To paraphrase Auntie Em in The Wizard of Oz, "And now... well... being a Christian poster I can't!"

Good Retort!

Thanks you for your cogent posts.

90%

Are you willing to accept a 90% loss?

cannot lose what you do not have

It is not a loss if you never have them. If they do not believe in what is taught, even if it is hard, then they were not really here in the first place.
MANY who followed Jesus, upon hearing of eating His flesh and drinking His blood, turned away. They said Who can hear this! Jesus did not run after them and say ohhh I really ment it is a symbol, or even, stick around and maybe I will change what I teach to suit your understanding. lol It is not about me accepting a 90% loss (which is pure fantasy) it is about your loss, from feeling that the Church must meet your test of reasonableness.

As a Catechist Gr7+8 I

As a Catechist Gr7+8 I assure that I teach the faith essentials, try to imbue our loving relationship with God, foster an appreciation for the renewals of Vatican II and pray that, like Manna from Heaven, something sticks

Do your students know that their immortal souls are in great danger of eternal damnation? Do they know they have immortal souls?

Just curious.

Joy v Anxiety

As a Catechist Gr7+8 I assure that I teach the faith essentials, try to imbue our loving relationship with God, foster an appreciation for the renewals of Vatican II and pray that, like Manna from Heaven, something sticks ... even if like dew. I do notice, however, the more removed from real speak the words and actions seem the less vital and relevant they become.

Children are savvy enough to pick up on phony mumbo-jumbo when they see or hear it. Like canaries in a cave, their observable indifference is telling signal to me that something is being 'lost in the translation'. I believe that this sort of turning back is opposite, backwards futile blather from true conversion, communion and becoming All In All Body of Christ - bearer of the Good News.

I continue to have joy and hope in the reforms promulgated by Vat II, guided by the Holy Spirit; and also, I carry sadness tinged with anxiety regarding how some still fail to see and need to deride.

Gobblygook

I couldn't agree more.

Blame the parents

Go ahead, blame the parents, parents like us who attend Sunday Mass, Holy Days of Obligation, discuss the Gospel, say Grace before meals and the Hail Mary before car trips, send our kids to religious ed and bible camp, and still struggle to get our teenagers to mass. You are wrong about our Catechesis. Both of us attended Catholic schools in very traditional parishes and prayed the Rosary with our families. Mom cooked for priests, Dad remembers the Latin Mass and was an altar boy for ten years. We are talking 16 and up teens here, young men who in our grandparent's generation would be off to work. What do you want us to do, punish them, ground them? I know. We should have gone to a traditionalist Latin parish, home schooled and kept all modern media out of our home. Popular culture is the Culture of Death. Our parents probably shouldn't have danced the jitterbug or listened to Benny Goodman. Your solution is a return to 1953. Do you think most Catholics who still attend weekly mass will go for that? How small and pure do you want to go? As far as Protestants, the Catholics I know who jumped ship and joined Evangelical churches all talk about how more welcoming they are than their old parishes. I hear them. I've seen the scowls from pew huggers when you want to seat your family past them, the heads turning when our kids were small and squirmy. I guess we should have smacked them. Yeah, looking back I can see we were pretty crappy parents. Never mind.

Keep Trying ...

My Mom and Dad taught me to love God and each other -- which I think was the top and bottom line for Jesus. They also helped me come to know that God's love and mercy are absolute, radical and unending. That I am a blessed, beloved Child of God. That God's love is the in-dwelling fire sustaining all of creation. So, do not be afraid. Don't sweat the details as long as you seek God out ... I believe that you will see God, is already seeking us out.

Don't let snarky comments from an irrelevant few get to you. Do as Jesus told his disciples to do: dust their dust off you feet and move on.

Dust

Good advice. Thanks.

overly sensitive

Seems like an overly sensitive reaction to the suggestion that catechesis has failed over the last 35 years (the parents and the children) and some changes need to be made to improve understanding. Why is it that any change is seen as a return to 1950's?
Why is it that any change in the liturgy brings the extreme reaction of people leaving the Church? Did they understand what the Church and the Eucharist is?

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Why I go

My catechesis was 45 years ago. Does that make me OK? The reason I attend mass is the Eucharist. If not for that the only others would be for ethnic tradition and because I have kids. That's not enough. If people really believed in the Eucharist there wouldn't be room in all the churches in the world to hold them. If it wasn't for the Eucharist I would no longer belong to a church I see returning to the authoritarian ways of the past. I remember the pre-Vatican II Church and I don't want to go back. Catholics I know who embrace increasing conservatism in the Church are conservatives across the board. I am not a conservative. Most Catholics, including those more conservative than me, are not as traditional as those who want to return to older forms of the Mass. Over 90% of Catholics reject the Church teaching on contraception. Conservatives say that doesn't matter, truth is truth. But the truth is that many Catholics hold on out of loyalty to their faith while biting their tongues about clericalism and a hierarchy that seems out of touch with the world. The majority of American Catholics will not embrace this translation or other traditionalist moves. Many will resent being told what to do like children. Like it or not modern American Catholics will not blindly obey. Conservative Catholics think this is great. Most will not. This is not a good time to tick them off.

yes it makes you okay, but

Sure your catechesis just makes you more culpable for the results of your pride than the people that did not receive it. Cathechesis is not a purity test, it is a tool to help adults live in a complicated world with fidelity. The Church failed to provide it, as it is supposed to. I don't think you have to worry about being uncomfortable though. Once the schism happens and the American catholic church takes that final step into oblivian, the Roman Catholics will continue on in obedience to Rome. If the Eucharist is your hope and sustaining strength though, and I agree it should be, then you will make the right choice when the time comes, because as Christ lives in you, you as the branch will not want to be severed from the vine.

Once the schism happens

Comment deleted.

The Only Recent Schismatics Are The Reactionary Few ...

Comment deleted.

it seems inaccurate

I am sorry KDaly, when you checked the sites referred to here, you must have missed: "The American Catholic Church in the United States is particularly sensitive to the voices of those who having been felt called to Catholic ministry, have found their way blocked by a blanket of requirements for celibacy. We are therefore committed to the admission of married persons to all ranks of the clergy" They also have a woman studying for ordination and are proud of their inclusive language. They say that they support all of VatII reforms. It seems to be exactly what so many folks on here claim that they want and need. So what is keeping them from joining? Let those unrefomed romantics keep Rome.

you are late to the party... it exists

I think you are late to the party. It exists today!
http://www.accus.us

I do not hope for a schism, I think it would be a disaster for most people. I also know just from reading the posts here that the pride, arrogance and fear that is evidenced by so many people who remark that they will not accept the changes will lead some, to try to move to the American Catholic Church.

it seems to be what many folks here are asking for

From their website,
"The ACCUS and its affiliated Worldwide jurisdictions are not under the jurisdiction of the Roman Catholic Church and the Pope
and are therefore not subject to the same rules and regulations."
Sounds like what many of the folks on here claim that they want.

Late to the party

More fantasy. It will never take off. More will leave or just stop going. I won't do either. See you Sunday.

the 11 "parishes" 2 bishops and canadian and mexican

The size of it and breadth of it suggest otherwise.
I suspect that if one finds these changes so threatening, the move to the American Catholic Church rather than a protestant demomination would be easier to justify. It does not work for me either but then I am not afraid of change.

Size and Breadth

It's a free country. People can do what they want. For me it's Once In Never Out. Besides, their web site looks like a Fifth Grade project.

My Protestant friends

wsxyz is of course spot on in the response. The reluctance of the kids is a reflection perhaps of a lack of ferver in the parents. The parents did not get the Catechesis they deserved either.
You cannot give what you do not have. All of that is not a reason to stop trying to repair the abuses of the past. You have to start somewhere and if they change Churches, maybe when they look back in a few years they will like the improvements they see and return.
" they may all jump ship and become Protestants"
Well they should not expect anything easier there. My Protestant friends spend more time at services and actually are far better read than many of my Catholic friends.

Kids

It's hard enough to get kids to attend mass, especially teens, and harder still to get them to recite the prayers. If you look around you'll see that most of them don't say or sing anything. I don't think many of them learn to memorize the prayers in religious ed and if they don't good luck for the parents. Of course kids should read the missal but a lot of parents feel they've done their best just getting them in the pews and hope they'll follow them. When the average kid hears the new translation and says, "Whaaaaa...?" a lot of parents are going to growl that the clergy has no idea what it takes to be a parent, which of course they don't. Priests go on in homilies about making Sunday a special family day without a clue how parents have to cajole, threaten and drag unwilling kids to mass. Sunday for many families is not the idyllic vision priests imagine but a weekly struggle. Parents are already worn out doing their parental duty as Catholics. How many want to take on the new battle of making kids learn and say the new translations? The average kid is bored stiff in church. How will this arcane translation help? It will be just one more reason they don't want to go and one more reason parents may give up forcing them. Without the kids the parents may stop going. Worse yet they may all jump ship and become Protestants. There's nothing I can do about this but I think it's bad for families and bad for the Church.

science confirms

Science confirms that the part of the brain that manages impulse control, is the last to develop and it does not occur until we are 21 - 22 years old.
There seems to be the underlying suggestion that recalcitrant teens should be the target audience that we would build worship of God around. As they surf the tidal wave of hormonal change and move from fad to fashion is anything easy to get them to understand or adhere to? Highschool, college, picking up the clothes in their room? Yes those welcoming Protestants have it right. Smile and be welcoming that is all the weary parent needs on a Sunday.

Welcoming Protestants

They're welcoming adults too and they supposedly have their whole frontal lobes.

It's hard enough to get kids

It's hard enough to get kids to attend mass, especially teens

This is only the case when the parents have allowed their children to grow up as practical atheists. If you teach your children the importance of prayer, religious practice, and love of God at an early age, and consistently as they grow up, then you don't have this problem in general.

You say "I don't think many of them learn to memorize the prayers in religious ed" -- no kidding. Catechesis has been a disaster ever since the late 60's. It is your responsibility to make sure that your children are educated about their religion and it is your responsibility to live the Catholic religion day-in and day-out with your children.

If you let your children become immersed in the secular materialistic culture that surrounds them, then do not be surprised if they learn to despise religion.

Every traditional Catholic parish I know of is full of active teens to take their religion seriously and who regularly assist at Mass and go to confession without the slightest prompting -- and that's when it's all in Latin.

A correct translation of the Roman Missal into English isn't a problem at all. It's the failure of parents to teach their children and to be a living example of holiness for them.

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