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"Fake" Catholics, Round 3

Monday, January 4, 2010
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Deal Hudson found my argument in favor of health care reform posted here and here uncompelling--and said so on his InsideCatholic.com blog. Deal get points from me for his intelligent and charitable response. I'm still not sure he got my main point: I don't argue that all Catholics must support health care reform as it is; I just argue that those of us who do are not "fake" Catholics and don't deserve to be addressed as such.

Hudson argues that federal funding will lead to more abortions, citing a Guttmacher study that showed that 18 to 35 percent of poor women who would have had abortions didn't because state Medicaid funding was cut off. I argued that making abortion illegal doesn't necessarily prevent it, though I didn't cite my source: A 2007 study conducted by Guttmacher and the World Health Organization that found similar rates of abortion regardless of whether the procedure was illegal, though the rates of death due to unsafe abortion were much higher where it was illegal.

Hudson says that any federal funding of abortion must be opposed because it amounts to direct cooperation in a serious moral evil. Hudson is off on the "direct" part, which is limited only to the doctor, woman, and person who directly pays for the procedure by an individual act of the will (in other words, writing the check). We all indirectly cooperate in funding abortion through our tax dollars, which fund Medicaid (which provides abortions in some states), and through our health insurance premiums. If your company offers abortion coverage, or the insurance company that insures your company does, you are indirectly cooperating in the same way you would through federally paid abortions.

It is, of course, indirect cooperation, which is still troubling. So here are some other serious evils Catholics, including me and Deal Hudson, contribute to through our tax dollars: the production and use of nuclear and other weapons of mass destruction that cause indiscrimate casualties; the large and small arms trade, which fuels brutal wars throughout the world, notably in Africa; capital punishment; human rights abuses in Guantanamo; the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, which have cost the lives of tens of thousands; a prison system that incarcerates African Americans at much higher rates than whites and punishes the innocent and ill (drug addicts, the mentally ill, women forced into prostitution) much more severely than the truly guilty ("white collar" criminals).

That's just the beginning of what we knowingly participate in (but say little about). Hudson, I imagine, will want my answer to whether health care reform will mean more abortions. The answer: We can't know, but we do know that the tens of thousands of people who die at the hands of our grossly unjust health care funding system will have a new lease on life: children, mothers, working families, older adults, you name it.

Health care reform is the right thing to do, and the Catholic thing. It may not be pretty, but nothing short of heaven is perfect, and what the House and Senate have passed is a step--and only a step--in the right direction.

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Catholics and abortions

Over 3500 defenseless innocent little boys and girls are slaughtered every singe day, in the United States of America alone. These are only the ones reported.

Whether or not the number would be increased, is not the concerning element of this legislation, for Catholics. The fact is, this legislation will force all American Catholics, who choose to obey this unconstitutional law, to use their very own money to fund this most grave evil.

American Catholics will be active conspirators to the murders of these children - this is undeniably a demonic thing to do, participating in the demonic sacrifice of the least of our brethren.

True Catholics will refuse to participate. This is a test ofd your faith. A real and valid test.

Don't worry, God already knows what you will do.

Dear Lord, send Michael, Gabriel, Raphael and the Blessed Mary here to America, a mass exorcism needs to be undergone. Fr. Euteneuer, are you ready? Have you verified the authenticity/ validity of this case?

http://www.hli.org/index.php/video-audio/35-audio/582-fr-thomas-euteneue...

sins of omission

You list evils we pay for with our tax dollars. But 25,000 people die every day because they are denied what the Church calls ordinary means of sustaining life. What is the individual responsibility here?

Sins of Omission response

We are called to tithe to relieve spiritual and material poverty. If you are giving 10% of your income, great! We should also use our talents to give smartly!

I'm flexible enough that some can't reasonably be expected to give 10% while others should be giving more.

Real Agendas

Bryan is willing to have universal healthcare with abortion coverage if that's what it takes. I am a secular humanist willing to accept universal healthcare without abortion, if that's what it takes.

For the supercatholics and fundamentalists, it's all about abortion. Healthcare isn't the issue they care about. Thay are aligned with the libertarian, fiscal conservatives, whose issue is no health care at all. They don't care about abortion one way or another. Together these two groups can block health care. Both see this as a political victory. I'm betting that's what we get. Nothing.

So be it. It's a process. Eventually healthcare will come. Just a matter of time. We just have to wait longer for the demographics to change. It's too bad but that's the way it is.

Megan Sweas's picture

Civility

Just a quick reminder to be nice in your responses to each other. Things are getting a little heated, so please refrain from name-calling, presumptions about the intelligence of the other side, etc. Thanks!

Bryan Cones' response to Deal Hudson

Cones' response seems to say----since tax money buys weapons and prisons (and some abortions), it is, therefore, OK to buy far more abortions through Obama care--a very slippery slope.

This is the twisted logic that comes from the left.
Any support of abortion is intrinsically wrong.

You can argue "just war", nuke weapons, racial make up of prisons or medicare/private healthcare but these do not justify increased murder of the unborn. (unless you are a Catholic of the Nancy Pelosi school of theology).

Bryan Cones's picture

Not quite, but I'll try again

I'm pointing out that it is impossible to be a member of a civil society that is not a theocracy and avoid indirect cooperation in moral evils you would not choose if you were free to: abortion, war, prison systems, torture, etc., none of which I would choose or have done in my name.

So, you can either remove yourself from civil society, not pay your taxes or receive any benefits from them, and go to jail, or you can choose the path of engagement with the political process, acknowledging that at least in a democracy, you will not be able to impose your religious beliefs (and the belief that a fertilized egg is a "person" is a religious belief, esp when you start talking about souls) on others without first convincing them of your opinion.

Or you can move to Iran.

I still argue that the way to win hearts and minds is not to make adversaries of health care reform and the right to life. Expanded health care could be a way to pursue the right to life by ending at least one economic penalty our society imposes on pregnant women. I'd be for universal preschool, day care, and cash subsidies for mothers, too, though I fear that may again be construed as the "twisted logic of the left."

To be honest, I find some of the reasoning below to more reflect an intransigence toward an expanded role for government in health care than mere opposition to abortion. I've heard no opponent of the reform say: Please, please, give us universal health care, just without abortion!

Bryan Cones

Bryan, still, twisted logic

Bryan,
If you believe as I do that abortion is intrinsically wrong, and that it is the worst evil legalized by our nation, than you must vote against anyone who does not oppose abortion---no matter what their view on health care. Don't forget--we are heading towards 100 million abortions---the killing of innocents--even if you believe that they are fertilized eggs with no souls (but I would like to see your footnotes). To me that is worse than slavery, worse than the holocaust, worse than war and genocide.
Tom

The U.S. Bishops?

As far as I am aware the U.S. Bishops have clearly said "Please, please, give us universal health care, just without abortion!"

Your advocacy for government controlling every aspect of our lives taking money from us to pay for universal health care, day care, and cash subsidies as the left deems fit is not "twisted logic;" it is what the left is all about. People who advocate liberty and those who believe that bigger government makes smaller men disagree.

Finally, please don't use the terms "reform" and "universal health care" as if they are one in the same. Most people advocate reforms, but not universal health care. I'll leave it to your reading to learn about reforms proposed other than the government takeover. Contact Congressman Tom Price MD, about his proposals.

Health care and abortion

Comments about healthcare and abortion and about all kinds of things seem to come up here. They also seem to center around wanting to do what you want or trying to appear to "feel" for the other guy, the poor etc. Abortion is wrong and never will be the answer to a person's problem or a nation's problem. Requiring the taxpayer to support abortions which are elective, not a health care issue, is also wrong (at least in my book). Nuclear weapons are not immoral by themselves - they have to be used. So don't try to equate that issue with abortion. Try discerning the difference between freedom and license and between tolerance and permissiveness. Then review Catholic Church Teachings. By the way, the dems healthcare bills are full of unconstitutional issues, in addition to abortion and conscience clause issues.

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